May 20, 2008...6:24 pm
Can You Feel the Power?
So look, I love Charlie Brooker normally. I’ve loved him pretty much forever and ever. Certainly, since when he was just that snarky website. Maybe I identify with him someway somehow, but, o’ course he chose to snark about TV and here I am snarking about some ridiculous asshatted sexual sub culture that I choose to inhabit for reasons that escape me right now.
Charlie Brooker is funny and smart and I’ll always remember him saying that The Power of Nightmares was like someone coming along and washing all the bullshit off your TV with an industrial hose. And I even forgave him that lame sitcom. But sometimes, in the end, you are cruellest of all to the things you love, because, god, you just expect so much more.
So, see, let your eyes roll over this here as a (presumably – I’ve not checked or anything) heterosexual man gets all confused by men being a teensy bit nakeder than usual and allowing themselves to be a teensy bit more sexualised than usual and so decides that that makes it, um, ‘homoerotic’.
Incredibly, [Spartan is] not the gayest-looking male Gladiator. That honour goes to Atlas, who has a body made of raw, bulging muscle, but the head and face of a woman. In his introductory ident, he appears to shake his flowing locks and wink coquettishly at the viewer. They should’ve called him Dorothy and had done with it.
Yes, he winks at the *viewer* so that makes him gay, of course, because the viewer must be male. I mean there is no other way to deconstruct that paragraph is there? Strapping young Atlas flirts with the viewer – attempts to engage the viewer sexually - therefore Atlas is gay. Sorry, does Charlie Brooker (who I *heart*, remember) not know that women watch television? That women have eyes?
What the fuck is going on here that this is an acceptable way to talk about the stuff of things?
You don’t think it might be slightly repressive to label all male (potential) sexual interaction as ‘gay’, do you?
Um…
Keeping with the homoerotic theme, you may have noticed that all the male Gladiators have names that sound like gay nightclubs. Oblivion, for instance, sounds like a steaming 4am sinbox filled with strobe lights and shaved heads.
Yes, but Charlie, because of people thinking the way you do about male sexuality, everything to do with men being sexualised in any way sounds like a gay nightclub. Our entire vocabulary for sexualising men was invented by gay men ’cause they had the agency to do it. (Whatever the world has thought about gay men throughout time and space the one thing they don’t seem to have thought is that they don’t have sexual agency – if anything (’backs against the walls’) they are thought to have too much.)
All sexy macho stuff is has vaguely gay overtones because gay men led the way in demanding sexuality from men. I may have mentioned this before when explaining how submissive men – if they really wanted to be sex toys for women – ought to find ways of sexualising themselves that were less fucking unsexy.
Men, if you want to dress like a slut, (i.e you want to dress like your desperate screaming need for sexual humiliation overwhelms and degrades you – and really, please do) dress like a man-slut, damnit. Wear a white jockstrap and big black boots and a collar and shave your head and get some bits of metal slammed through your strategic points of interest. Yeah, you will look kinda gay. That is because gay men know how to sexualise men. In fact, if you look gay you’re doing it right.
And because of this whole thing where gay men practically invented the idea of men being sexy, straight women owe them a debt. There is no doubt that without them we would be stuck with the ‘ew, cocks, ew, smegma, beer belly, hairy arse…‘ idea of male physicality that (some) straight men seem to like to wallow in whenever anyone mentions the idea that men might be sexually attractive.
But having this vocabulary for sexualising men is also full of big problems. And Charlie shows us just where they crop up. Male sexiness is just too close to gayness for a lot of men to feel comfortable with being sexy or seen as sexually attractive *ever*. (Or even with other men being sexy.)
And because sexy = gay for men that makes it harder for us to demand sexuality from men because
(a) het men are scared of the gay - so scared that straight submissive men would rather sexualise themselves with women’s clothing (i.e in a way that doesnot actually look sexy on men) than dress the way a gay man would dress to mark himself as sexually available
(b) it means that any whinging for adequate man sexaulising porn can be responded to by being told to, well, look at gay erotica for that, darling.
God, you know, at least 17 people have emailed me to say that kink dot com are doing a gay porn BDSM site. And isn’t it a bit fucking strange that, god, really, that is so going to be more attractive to women who like men tied up that the site they already have featuring women tying men up!
Look, another disclaimer, I don’t find Gladiators particularly sexy – they are probably just too ridiculous for me - but they are sexualised in a way men mostly aren’t, and the idea that that makes them ‘gay’ is totally fucking offensive and another big eraser rubbing out any kind of female gaze/female desire/ female sexual wanting.
We need to stop filing every image of a naked/hot/aroused/sexy/sexually available man in ‘homoerotic’. Apart from anything else, last time I looked there were homosexual women and they aren’t a whole bunch about the sexualised images of men. I mean, do I even need to start about how if you are a woman a homoerotic image would be one of a sexualised woman - in fact if you are a woman you live in a sea of homoerotica. And yet, somehow, no one ever sees it that way.
But no, let’s look at it this way, and image can only be homo (or hetero) sexual if there is more than one person in it. Otherwise - like Wilde- it can only be sexual.
Because, really, how exactly is pouting hair-tossing Atlas being so gay? He’s there on his own. A man on his own really isn’t going to get up to a whole bunch of gay sex.
(NB You know when I said I didn’t find gladiators particularly sexy I mostly meant the modern version, the idea of real gladiators, or gladiatorial combat, well, I’m just glad we don’t have that now – I’m conflicted enough about the stuff I like as it is. (Although I am also glad we don’t have them now because, obviously, it is also gross and wrong. (But also… (Ah, forget it))))


29 Comments
May 20, 2008 at 7:11 pm
A while back we mentioned the 1970s TV series “All That Glitters.” Women as captains of industry, males as secretaries etc.
In THAT world, one wonders how the males might have eroticized themselves, in order to appeal to women.
There is no question of homoerotic appeal in that universe, because the power relationship would be explicit; we’d know who was currying favor with whom.
So, if males were the menials, dependent upon their ability to please women, what would they do?
May 20, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I once saw part of a show called “One show” because it featured Jason Isaacs and I kinda drool on him…anyway the point is,at a certain point,one of the hosts (the man) turns to JI and tells him he has a quite a nicely proportioned body.
JI,instead of referring,either joking or not,that he must keep fit for his wife,etc,answers he’s doing an army film and he’s surrounded by men with (hot) fit bodies.Unfortunately,the youtube clip ends after this,but it doesn’t seem it would get much better.
So,it seems we,women,are never a reference,not even for straight men. We’re never the ones to please or attract and,unfortunately,that shit is fed on every single ( you’re an exception.of course)blog written by a kinky woman.
Doms are always demanding money in order to buy clothes to please the clients and subs are perhaps blind,I don’t know,but they never actually refer the man’s body. Perhaps I’m some freak who thinks masochist or not,it’s nice to fuck an attractive man.
Concerning ancient gladiators…well,I’d like to sit in the coliseum and watch those hot men fight to the death…
And it’s me,Coralina,with a new blog :D.
May 20, 2008 at 10:12 pm
I think you’re forgetting that the majority of Charlie Brookers articles will always offend someone…this time, it just happened to be you. Just because the subject is something you obviously have strong opinions about doesn’t mean that he’s wrong (I love him too, but lets face it, he often is) or stupid or that he shouldn’t write about it, it just means that this is one of those things that you don’t see eye to eye on. Comment Is Free is mainly there to be provokative, and this time it pushed your buttons. Get over it. Comment with the other hundreds if you really feel the need, but don’t react so strongly to something that was written to provoke such a reaction in the first place! Its all subjective, eh
May 20, 2008 at 10:13 pm
By the way, Comment is free is right under you in my blog reader - spooky
May 20, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Well I think the issue is more that Charlie Brooker is not the only person you see expressing themselves about male sexuality this way. I just picked on Charlie because I *heart*, and that.
May 20, 2008 at 10:18 pm
And, you know, I actually do think he’s wrong. Really.
May 20, 2008 at 10:25 pm
*applauds*
May 21, 2008 at 12:13 am
God, you know? I mean really.
Men as sex objects for women is hardly news in 2008, *mainstream*, not just on whatever edges we may be occupying.
Women know this. Did some of the guys not get the memo? I’ll write one right away if necessary, or, you know, see my blog.
Don’t know Charlie Brooker. Am a little peeved at him at teh moment.
May 21, 2008 at 2:12 am
I don’t think men as sex objects are that mainstream,really. If they’re, Bitchy wouldn’t have written this post.
Men as gay objects,perhaps,but not men as objects enjoyed by straight women. I ‘ve read about a lot of male actors being all happy about posing for gay magazines,but I’ve never read one of them bragging about posing for a feminine magazine,perhaps because all of them think we’re all lesbians,with those beautiful women on the covers.
May 21, 2008 at 3:38 am
I’m sorry. I got lost at ‘oblivion’ being a nightclub. It’s too firmly entrenched in my brain as being one of the best looking rpg’s in ever and ever. And possibly a little bit longer than that, too.
I don’t care what you call it (cyberotica?), the graphics in that game make me drool.
May 21, 2008 at 6:30 am
Men as gay objects,perhaps,but not men as objects enjoyed by straight women.
<mini-brainwave> This is probably why there’s a trope of women admiring a handsome man and sighing to each other, “He’s probably gay.”
May 21, 2008 at 3:04 pm
@ poisonette - shrug, sure looks that way to me.
Girls didn’t scream and faint over the Beatles because they were overcome by *the music*. Showering Tom Jones with used panties wherever he sang, for years, wasn’t a very *subtle* expression of their primal response to him. (For whatever reason?)
Women responding to men as sex objects is right there, if Charlie Brooker wants to look. Perhaps he should attend a few modern day bachelorette parties for an insider view. (Oh the humanity! I happened to be on the outskirts of one in Vegas one time, accident, and let me tell you, it looked like those women were going to tear the male stripper to pieces. I swear they were foaming.)
It’s less usual for women to outwardly express that response when we’re not safely in packs (concerts, strip shows, parties), but, anybody who wants to look, it’s right *there* in the open.
E
May 21, 2008 at 4:12 pm
And, another thing, (I’m on a roll now
), part of the reason I get so *cheesed off* that men-as-sex-objects are so completely and totally missing from anything “femdom” (hate that word, send another kthxbai), is because the mainstream world *does* allow men as sex objects for women.
The soap operas that require their male studs to do X number of scenes per week sans shirt, aren’t doing it for the gay guys who happen to be staying home with the little kids during the day. They also aren’t doing it of the kindness of their hearts, they are doing it to serve a well identified and established female market.
So, I really don’t know what the Charlie Brooker comment means. Does it mean that the marketers get this but the common everyday man has missed the part where men *are* sex objects for women?
And, more importantly, when are these same marketers coming to “femdom”?
*taps foot while searching for a better word than “femdom” *
May 21, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I’m not sure your examples are that relevant. Yes there is marketing aimed at women that uses men (there’s a hell of a lot less than there is aimed at straight men - sometimes I wonder how they function), *but* the fact is sexualised images of men that are slightly more sexy than the soap-opera-shirt-off usual are still labeled ‘homoerotic’. Like there’s a limit, a ceiling on what woman are allowed. A certain level of niceness.
What Charlie Brooker is saying about Gladiators here isn’t an isolated incident. I don’t really understand why you think it is *only* *him* that doesn’t get this. He’s using a vocabulary for talking about these images that is all too common and is easily understood by the readers.
Where I do agree is that is so much worse in femdom and that sometimes feels particualrly insulting with all the ‘I just want to make you happy, ma’am’ posturing.
I mean, doesn’t every dominant woman want to answer, ‘well get my fucking underwear off then, sissy-clueless.’
I mean what part of doing whatever a woman desires was that misfiled under? And can we get that case reopened?
May 21, 2008 at 5:36 pm
I think I’m mixing my topics up sufficiently so as to not be making my (brilliant, of course) point clear.
Men as sex objects are missing completely in femdom and also in The Sex Industry at large. (Ironic, I love irony.) The only sex objects The Sex Industry gives women are vibrators. While I do appreciate the effort there, the rest is wasteland. Do not want.
In popular culture, mainstream culture, I do not run into the man as sex object being seen as homoerotic. I’m living out here in vanilla with a bunch of reasonably horny vanilla women who are happy to hang out with me, pretending to talk business, while we are waiting for the really hot Fed Ex driver to bend over to pick up the packages in the warehouse. (This occupied an entire year of afternoons at 4PM, a few years back, just like the fabled Diet Coke commercial of olden days.)
So ?? I don’t know.
The ceiling you speak of, that has to be where my topics are getting muddled (mainstream vs sex industry) I agree about the ceiling…but Charlie (and sorry to pick on him, I don’t know him) *is* talking about mainstream images and not sex industry images so I really am just confused. I still don’t see how it could be news to him or anybody that objectified mainstream images of men serve mainstream women.
If his (or someone else’s) point was a male being in a *submissive* position or pose was homoerotic, the lack of understanding would be more understandable. In this context, it seems just way out of touch. I don’t know anybody who thinks like that in this day and age.
May 21, 2008 at 5:50 pm
I still think there are only certain kinds of male imagery women are allowed to get off on: Diet Coke man, Torso of the week, that is the raw bleeding edge of it!
Gladiators is a mainstream show, maybe it’s on the borderline, but they are a little more naked and buffed and overt than men normally are on mainstream TV.
There’s a very definite line - but maybe we can move it. You and me. With blogging.
May 21, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Did you see that I already did a Gladiators post last week?
Already, I’m doin’ my part, before you even have to ask!
May 21, 2008 at 8:52 pm
I think we’re talking about different things,Elizabeth :D.
One thing is we liking to look at hot men,another thing is that being socially recognized. It isn’t and,sometimes,not even women accept look at men like sex objects.
I’ll give an eg: I was in a blog about Robin Hood,and we’re discussing if Marian loved Robin or Guy ( yeah,it was deep like that). I suggested perhaps she loved Robin,but she lusted after Guy.
I was looked like if I was a freak and a stupid: how dared I suggesting a woman could simply want to fuck a man due to lust?!!
I also remember an interview where JKRowling was complaining about the number of women who
Sex scenes are never filmed having us,straight women,as a target,they never show the feminine desire. For me,that’s the point: why showing men as objects,if women have no sexual desire?!
Soaps know women like to look at,but that’s not the same as having sexualized men just for us to enjoy,outside a soap opera ,in the same way women are!
May 21, 2008 at 8:55 pm
completing sentence about JK:
said Lucius and Draco were hot. Not only she spoke like she wasn’t the one creating hot villains,as she clearly stated she was worried because all those women and teens were wanting to change them,yada yada. You see ,Elizabeth,she never said women /teens could be lusting.No,we,women,we never desire and never look at men like sexual objects!
May 22, 2008 at 12:20 am
Okay, so we’re separating “serving up the beef” from serving up sex scenes for women (mainstream).
And here I’m completely handicapped to have an opinion at all. *My* sexuality doesn’t plug into most any of the sex scenes, gots to make them up in my head or you know, write them on a blog or two somewhere….
Isn’t the point of Grey’s Anatomy and Desperate Housewives and such to have teh sexay for the mainstream vanilla woman? My friends sure *seem* hot and bothered by it. I’m not trying to be dense but I’m really not following. Those shows were made to serve up beef and sex for women, within the confines of primetime tv. I don’t see how Gladiators is any different or why it was noted as homoerotic, that’s why I started out mystified. I don’t know why the Gladiators would be homoerotic when Eric Dane coming out of the shower barely clad in a towel isn’t.
Re: JK, aw, she’s probably had nightmares about raising a generation of young women to crave teh “bad boys”.
Bad boys are fine, as long you know what to do with them.
I might advise a daughter to stay away from them, tho.
Anyway, no solutions here. Once the topic gets to sex scenes and mainstream, I must disqualify myself. [grin]
p.s. did we get any decent interwebs *porn* out of this yet? No? Damn.
May 22, 2008 at 2:26 am
I think the big point here is that guys in towels just out of the shower is the ceiling Bitchy’s talking about. Anything above that (ie, gladiators), is ‘too sexual’ to be aimed at female viewers (because female viewers don’t want to see anything sexier than a guy in a towel), and, therefore, must be aimed at the gay male market, and therefore is homoerotic (because every gay guy has a thing for bulging abs, spandex/leather/whatever they wear now outfits, and poses that drip wankyness).
I think that’s what’s going on.
May 22, 2008 at 10:29 am
Elisabeth, I think it is that stuff like Desperate housewives and Gray’s anatomy are aimed especially at women, while the Gladiator thing is not. So as soon as men “can” watch something, they are considered the only spectators. Sex in anything not specifically aimed at women, therefore *has* to be aimed at men. Male sexuality in Gladiators *must* therefore be homoerotic.
Male sexuality is only acceptable (as straight) in a “women-only” context. Otherwise men are considered the viewers… (this sucks!)
But well, that’s just what I think.
May 22, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Elisabeth, I think it is that stuff like Desperate housewives and Gray’s anatomy are aimed especially at women, while the Gladiator thing is not. So as soon as men “can” watch something, they are considered the only spectators. Sex in anything not specifically aimed at women, therefore *has* to be aimed at men. Male sexuality in Gladiators *must* therefore be homoerotic.
Lightbulb!
Thank you!
May 23, 2008 at 9:34 am
Welcome!!
(Thank god my genderstudies-courses come to use once in a while… 
May 24, 2008 at 4:08 am
I’m going to resist leaping in on RoS and Harry Potter, although I heart both, but I will just point out that Desperate Housewives was created by gay guys and is partly aimed at a gay audience.
Now I’m going to trounce you all geekwise and talk about 16th century England. Elizabeth’s reign was an interesting time because a woman was in charge, and she was a woman who really liked a hot guy. She wasn’t above promoting a guy simply because she fancied him - for example, Christopher Hattom impressed her with his leet dancing skilz, and boom, he had a career. Furthermore, while in her father’s time, all the powerful people - all the people closest to the monarch - were men, suddenly in her time, the people closest to the monarch were women - ladies in waiting, maids of honour, etc. So all the lords suddenly had an incentive to impress the chicas. If you had a petition and you wanted the queen to look at it, your best option was to persuade one of her ladies to put it in front of her. So they spent a lot of time trying to butter these women up.
If you look at the fashions of that time, you can see the effect of all this: suddenly the guys are showing their legs off by wearing their upper hose (the puffy trousery bit) as short as possible, right at crotch level, with just thin nether hose covering their legs (what we inaccurately refer to as ‘tights’). Think Blackadder and his ‘very tight tights’. They became real peacocks, the clothes absolutely covered in gold and jewels and slashing, the most expensive fabrics they could find, the latest styles, growing their hair (the dark-eyed ‘gypsy’ look was big), strutting around with huge swords strapped to their waists, and generally becoming the perfect blend of pretty and macho. They even padded their stockings to make their calf muscles look bigger. And the dancing, too involved the guys showing off, each trying to do the fanciest leaps, the fastest kicks, etc.
May 25, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Yes,I think before the XIXth century,though perhaps it wasn’t openly accepted,there was the idea women enjoyed and desired men. But we also must distinguish between courtesan environments,where things were more free,and the “vulgar”ones.
I think the victorian period was a turning back,a devolution.
I agree concerning DH:its authour clearly stated those were the kind of women gays usually liked. Personally,I think the characters are as empowering for women as a cockroach looking at us.
I must leap again on HP :D,because,after all,a lot of young women read it.
Look at Hermione ,Ginny and Luna. Did they ever expressed desire,even on the last book?And Cho?We never heard her saying Harry was hot,but we kept seeing Ron going on Lavender? I understand Voldy: reading Ginny’s diary must have been THE bore.
And what about the adult women? They never expressed desire,because JK transformed all of them in “mothers”. Witches are connected to sexuality,but Samantha from S&C,that muggle,was more sexual than all of them together,lol.
Anyway,when JK’s readers were saying the Malfoys were hot,they weren’t telling they agreed with their actions. Why confound things? Lots of boys and men (and teen lesbians) probably kink on Bellatrix, but I’ve never read JK giving them a moral speech.
End of geeky moment,lol!
May 27, 2008 at 9:43 am
It always amazes me in Cosmopolitan centrefolds, where men get their kit off, that 1) it’s always for charidee, because nice girls don’t want beefcake without redeeming cause and 2) the men always seem apologetic and embarrassed and sort of ‘well I did three gaziliion press ups but honestly I do feel sort of nervous, gosh gee, nudity is difficult’
Because I have never seen the equivalent in Nuts magazine, where women strip off with gusto, providing all the mainstream nudity men like without a hint of apology or thinking or orphans.
I agree that there is very little in mainstream, or anywhere, that just embraces as normal that I might want someone looking very masculine and posing for my pleasure.
I did have a boyfriend who failed to understand why women flocked to the spate of marvel comic film flicks, such as Superman returns and Spiderman. Yet the collective sigh that went up from the cinema when spiderman went all dark and evil and got those ripped abs and danced a mean tango said it all really… Maybe those films are partly about women wanting the average men they have to transform into the tights wearing, always available, muscley men of their dreams.
May 28, 2008 at 9:32 pm
“Look at Hermione ,Ginny and Luna. Did they ever expressed desire,even on the last book?”
Ginny did. She had a pretty healthy sex-life. She was always snogging someone, and not remotely embarrassed about it. Remember Ron nearly calling her a slag? And Ginny’s righteous indignation about it? In fact, JKR has been quite vocal on Ginny’s right to snog who she pleases. One of the reasons she dislikes the Narnia series is because she felt that Lewis condemned Susan for growing up and liking boys.
June 1, 2008 at 10:03 am
I love your point about a sexual image only being oriented a particular way if more than 1 person is in it. That makes perfect sense.
And Em, you mentioned men acting like peacocks. Why shouldn’t they? Humans are the only animal where the female feels the need to sexually attract the male. Male birds are the colorful ones, lions have mains, and size obviously matters to any horned/antlered animal. It would be nice if more men today would try that instead of the appearance that Bitchy describes in this post.
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